Topic: JAMMA adapter?

Are there any plans for a JAMMA adapter/daughterboard?

Jason McMullan, AROS m68k developer

Re: JAMMA adapter?

Yeah I believe that's the plan...
http://www.fpgaarcade.com/dev/drupal/?q=node/12

-Adam
==============
www.onecircuit.com
==============

Re: JAMMA adapter?

Hi all!

I would like to continue this thread to discuss the features for the adapter.

My proposal for a "minimal" adapter is:

*Inputs (with 5V level shifter and ~1kOhms pull-up, like a real board behaves):
- P1:start/up/down/left/right/button1/.../button5 (10 inputs)
   up/down/left/right/button1/button2 also directly maps to joyport A
- P2:start/up/down/left/right/button1/.../button5 (10 inputs)
   up/down/left/right/button1/button2 also directly maps to joyport B
- Coin A/Test/Service (3 inputs)

*Outputs
- Video R/G/B/Sync (analogue video)
- Speaker+/Speaker- (Mono, 1 to 2 Watts)
- Audio+/Audio- (mono line-out on usually NC pins M and 11)

What I see as nice to have is:

*Inputs:
- Coin B/Tilt (2 inputs - yes, maybe this is no big deal to have in the above list as well...)
*Outputs
- Speaker R / Speaker L (Stereo, approx. 2x 1Watt - like NeoGeo connectors)
- Audio R / Audio L (stereo line-out on usually NC pins M and 11)
- Coin counter #1 / Coin lockout #1 (open-drain ~1A closed, ~12V open, rev. diode)

Further option (even "nicer to have"):

*Outputs
- Coin counter #2 / Coin lockout #2 (open-drain ~1A closed, ~12V open, rev. diode)

Any thoughts? Comments?

--wolfgang

/WoS

Re: JAMMA adapter?

We need 6 buttons (think Street Fighter etc) pr player, and with start button - 11 inputs pr player.
1-5 inputs should be mapped to jamma edge, while 4-6 should be mapped to a kick connector. e.g JST-XH
There should be 2 coin inputs as some games map coin input to player1/2.

Never seen any games that use tilt/lockout/counter (from jamma edge).

Re: JAMMA adapter?

Good input Invzim, thanks.
Do you have any specs on the extra connector or JVS in general?
Perhaps it is possible to make a board which can connect to both.
/MikeJ

Re: JAMMA adapter?

Yes, good comment.

From implementation point of view my proposal would be:
* 2x left/right/up/down/button1 (maybe also button2) could be the same for the joyports and jamma. This should directly work for many classic games w/o additional effort using a classic joystick as well.
* Further buttons could be mapped with e.g. a i2c i/o extender connected to the AUX pins to allow plenty of them (including 1p/2p, coin and other inputs). These are mapped to jamma (player, coin, up to 5 buttons only) and an additional connector with even more buttons as invzim suggests. They can also be mapped to keyboard for users with classic joysticks only.

I'd like to see at least 1 lockout and cointer outputs as optional add-on users may assemble afterwards to use a "real" old cocktail/upright case which still has this functions. I use mine with real money as piggy bank and I don't see any reason why one might not use the board in a "commercial" setup as well   wink

But I agree, probably "99%" would not need this and may not want to spend extra money on the parts by default. I assume keeping the footprints of the open-drain drivers it just on the PCB layout (but unassembled) is not a cost adder - the PCB should be already limited by the connector size and not by the parts.

/WoS

Re: JAMMA adapter?

It's slightly more complex to maintain two builds of a PCB - more possibility for them to build it wrong.

What we could do is design it with the footprints for the extra connector and IO drivers and if a customer wants to add them, they can. We probably already need a serial IO expander on the board anyhow.

I would like a stereo sound connector for sure.
2W sounds a little low ... there are some nice integrated classD amps now - but high THD.

Perhaps something old school like the TDA7269A.

8 (edited by WoS 2013-09-06 11:11:19)

Re: JAMMA adapter?

Yes, that's what I meant - one PCB with assembly options for the drivers.

Stereo is super - like e.g. neo-geo JAMMA variants have (instead of -SP/+SP mono using L/R stereo channels there and use the common GND). But there should be a output disable jumper on this second channel, as some JAMMA cases/cables I saw "nail" the output to the common GND (which is in general not really forbidden, but for an output not really good to short it).

Problem could be power dissipation, depending on the setup. From my experience 1-2W is plenty for any usually arcade case (I use such 2W modules for cable adapters of boards with no amp) - but I am fine with more power cool

For the IC I'd go with a "newer" stereo car amplifier e.g. NXP and Co, offers (no, I am not working for them :-) ). These should be available also for quite some more time.
Some types are TDA1517, TDA1519, TDA1552, ...

To ensure availability, Class-D car amplifier products may be even better. They should require less costly external components and have much less power dissipation - like the SAB2402/3 from Infineon or the TDF8599C from NXP (very new, might not be available yet...).  They use SMD packages only (as they do not need so much cooling like classic amps).

/WoS

Re: JAMMA adapter?

I was looking at Class-D ones first, but didn't find the THD figures for reasonable outputs. Are they ok?
I'll have a browse around. An SMD package without heatsink will be easier to assemble for sure.

10 (edited by WoS 2013-09-06 12:18:52)

Re: JAMMA adapter?

Comparing ST devices, the TDA7269A (AB) you mentioned with the TDA7491MV (D), they are quite similar.
THD is ~0.1% at reasonable power output going up to 10% for full power (which is higher for the second one).

Latter needs no mechanical cooling for this, but an LC circuit at the output instead.

Further readings:
http://www.analog.com/library/analogdia … lass_d.pdf
http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes/an-1071.pdf

Nevertheless - when not using high-end loudspeaker chassis in a similar/higher pricerange than the Replay itself (and usually producing a quite low output level to keep the mechanical movement low for linearity), they will be the performance bottleneck ;-)

/WoS

Re: JAMMA adapter?

Right now I can't remember any title specifically, but I'm pretty sure there are some games with separate coin inputs for the different players :-)

Having the possibility to address more than two players can be nice too. Some of my best memories at arcades are from me playing with my two brothers at the Konami Simpson's beat'em up and many Capcom games too, like Captain Commando, or Data East's Avengers.

BTW, was Off Road control analog? Was it even a Jamma board? Or better said, what can be done about analog controls? :-)

My software: [url]https://github.com/m6502[/url]
My music: [url]https://soundcloud.com/m6502[/url]
My work: [url]http://www.linkedin.com/in/manuelmontoto[/url]

Re: JAMMA adapter?

Just been reading some of the datasheets, I'm convinced wink
We need one that can take 12V, stereo and non-bridged output.
I'll browse around.

Re: JAMMA adapter?

There are four analog inputs to the ARM wired up to the main expansion connector.

14 (edited by WoS 2013-09-06 12:47:43)

Re: JAMMA adapter?

Debvgger wrote:

BTW, was Off Road control analog? Was it even a Jamma board? Or better said, what can be done about analog controls? :-)

In the early times arcade PCB connectors were proprietary so it was required to wire them by an adapter to a game chassis (the typical upright stands or cocktail cases you could find in pubs and gameing shops).
JAMMA defines a standard connector to use/connect arcade Boards starting from the late 1980.

If you google for "Jamma", you can find the connector pinout already in the first hits. Unfortunately these do not define analogue inputs. AFAIK the games you mention (looking at the arcade versions) don't use analogue control at all (you can look yourself at klov.com).

The question is if it makes sense to add support to the Jamma extension with a separate connector or better go for a second extension board with just such connectors (like the larger 15p connector used on the famous soundblaster boards on the PCs or so). This board may not need the amp and so on. Maybe even a kind of generic board with a pin grid for custom setups?

But I'd assume nowadays analogue controls are USB based and not discrete anymore (I had such an analog joystick for the PC using discrete potentiometers, never really worked well because of the bad mechanical zero/offset repeatability).

/WoS

15 (edited by invzim 2013-09-06 13:28:10)

Re: JAMMA adapter?

In regards to JVS, it's really a whole different"beast" than normal jamma.

Basically it works like this:
1 - physical layer is RS485, GND and a proprietary sense line - uses a USB type A female connector
2 - JVS master (e.g. sega naomi, taito type x, namco system 256 etc) or in this case the adapter, will query the cabinet IO board, the JVS slave, every 60 seconds for analog, digital input and credit status

The FPGA board really just needs to see the serial + sense lines, and a core that maps this into inputs used by the game cores - OR, you could do it physically and have an MCU or similar that sinks the same lines a cabinet would.

As for audio, i see no real need for a stereo amplifier on board - most stereo games are unamplified, and chances are if you have a stereo wired cab, you also have an amp to drive it.

coin lockot etc, which games ACTUALLY outputs anyting here?

Kick connectors are always proprietary and weird, JST-XH is just easy to source both ends of..

Re: JAMMA adapter?

Every 60 seconds or every 1/60 seconds?

My software: [url]https://github.com/m6502[/url]
My music: [url]https://soundcloud.com/m6502[/url]
My work: [url]http://www.linkedin.com/in/manuelmontoto[/url]

Re: JAMMA adapter?

he, every 1/60 seconds smile  It's actually up to the master to decide the polling rate, but the systems I've analyzed is about 60hz - should probably be linked to vsync is possible.

18 (edited by WoS 2013-09-06 14:18:47)

Re: JAMMA adapter?

I agree on your comment about stereo. But I understand also the fact that it does not make any big difference between using a single channel or dual-channel amplifier, latter allows just more flexibility in individual setups. So I am in favour with stereo as well, maybe I adopt my cabinet (and would like to avoid an amplifier...).

invzim wrote:

coin lockot etc, which games ACTUALLY outputs anyting here?

Depends if you look on dedicated vintage games (even pre JAMMA) or the new(er) ones I'd call "console-like platforms". When speaking about FPGA ports of early games - I am implementing the whole game board including this outputs, like ALL the originals use.  wink

/WoS

19 (edited by WoS 2013-09-06 14:18:06)

Re: JAMMA adapter?

Another question would be if someone is ever going to implement e.g. a sega naomi, taito type x or namco system 2x6 "console" for a FPGA setup like the Replay - and if it is even possible to fit it on a 1600k gates FPGA including the required speed (assuming ALL technical details are available and someone is really willing to do the job).

Just having the controller connector w/o the required game system implemented "behind" in first place sounds for me not really useful  wink

/WoS

Re: JAMMA adapter?

Ah, the purpose would not primarily be for native JVS games, but to play jamma games in a JVS cab..

If you have an "input core", it would take either JAMMA input or JVS, and pass it on to the game core.

21

Re: JAMMA adapter?

Ok, got it  wink

/WoS

Re: JAMMA adapter?

more on JVS.  with the initialization messages, and different IO boards with different capabilities, which again requires different polling requests, I don't see making a JVS HDL state machine feasible.  i could be wrong..

Re: JAMMA adapter?

The games with separate coin inputs for each plsayer are mainly custom pinout (not jamma), and include things like The Simpsons, Rampage, Iron Man (racing game) and Gauntlet - all the games with 3 or more joysticks (or trackballs / steering wheels etc)

games with lots of buttons, such as Street fighter 2 & mortal kombat had a jamma connector and an extra row of pins for a 'kick harness' connector for the additional buttons.  (jamma officially supports 3, but it actually has unused pins in the right place to have buttons 4 and 5, and I've seen several MK boards with wires from the harness pins to the edge connector)

is it possible to have some of the IO ports flexible enough to be used for items other than buttons, such as for spinner / wheel / trackball  - then you could use the kick harness for whatever you wished - obviously you would need to have something in an INI file or similar to let Replay know

you can already get a Sega JVS to Jamma converter to allow people to use Jamma boards in their JVS wired cab so not sure if that needs to be included

Re: JAMMA adapter?

I've finished the tricky layout cell design for the Jamma edge connector. I'll try and get the rest done next week while I'm in China.

Re: JAMMA adapter?

I just bought an arcade cab again! \o/ So a jamma adaptor is def in the future!